thinking about memes, thinking about thinking... : comments [elanya]

I don't know if I agree completelky with this, but it does an okay job at making the point I am thinking of. And then, I can be lazy, and you get to look at a cartoon ^-^

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Personally, I don't agree with the sentiments of the comic. I think one would have to be paranoid and insecure to always think that way.

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Possibly... I don't agree with it 100% either. But I don't think it is a *conscious* way of thinking.

I don't thik you have to be insecure to want to be noticed, for instance. I would define you as being an attention hound, but not as insecure. Why do you like to be the center of attention?

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I think there's a difference between wanting to be noticed and fishing for compliments. As a dancer, for instance, I don't dance so people will tell me how great I am, but I dance to make other people happy. I like for people to experience things I experience, and to think about things in new ways.

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I think that the point of fishing for compliments is often simply to have people notice you, and to have them note that you are in some way remarkable.

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If I know someone is fishing for compliments, I generally find it pathetic.

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So do I, a lot of the time, but I still do it... See posts on writing ;)

But people don't always do it consciously, as I said before. I think that a lot of the things that people, in general, do to get themselves noticed are also pretty pathetic (reality tv anyone?), but I think that they stem from the same reasons.

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I just thought of something else... Which is that when I do things, like perform, or write, or whatever, and I'm seeking praise or feedback for it, it is because I want to know if I am doing a good job of pleasing my audience, as you put it, which is why we do things, right? It is satisfying to know that you are doing a good job, but without feedback, how do you know?

Yes, people give feedback of their own accord from time to time, but not always. And it depends on the venue. I find that after dance performances, for example, it is easier to get feedback from other dancers. Partly it is a matter of community, and partly a matter of energy, I think. People are less likely to leave comments on written work unless directly solicited, and even then... This is based on my experience with various story-telling groups, more than with LJ, which is a more communicative medium.

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I believe there is a significant difference between fishing for praise and seeking feedback. In the former, you are looking only for the positive, whereas in the latter, you are looking for information, whether positive or negative.

When I look for feedback, I'm trying to find ways to improve what I'm doing. One of the reasons I stopped going to the Albert Ross Society's creative writing group was because it was a whole bunch of back-patting, and no real constructive criticism. It was useless to me as a writer. Sure, it's nice to hear that people like your story, but if all you hear is how nice a story is, without ever getting any useful information on how to improve, the whole experience becomes vacuous.

Yes, I like to know what I'm doing right, but I find it more important to know what I'm doing wrong.

My goal as an artist/entertainer isn't necessarily to please my audience, but to make them think or feel. For example, I've written some things which have inspired outrage rather than pleasure.

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I agree... I would raher have more comments on a piece that I have written than "I like it!", but I find that the first step is finding out if it has been read at all, so when people leave me an 'I like it!" comment, I will tend to pursue them for more specifics. If they did like it, I want to know why so I can keep doing whatever to at least that standard. If they didn't, well, then I want to know why, so I can fix it (unless I disagree).

And earlier you said that you like to dance to make your audience happy, which is what I was drawing on, although, yes, that is over simplified. In any artistic form, there are multiple emptional responses that we can aim for. If I can write something that makes some one cry, well, that's an achievement ^-^

I think there is kind of a blurry line between praise seeking and imput seeking. I know that I would rather hear that I'm doing a good job than a poor one, but I ultimately prefer *honest* comments. I'm 'seeking praise' in the sense that I hope I am doing well, not in the sense that I want people to lie to me to make me feel good. But it is still the praise that I'm ultimately after, because, as I said, that's what tells me I am succeeding in my intentions. And it's all about intent right? ^-^

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But aren't we all insecure from time to time? It's not about 'always' thinking that way, but about occasionally needing validation, and not having any way to get it immediately at hand.

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Hence why I used the word "always."

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Right, but the question you asked initially is why fish for compliments at all. And the answer is simply that people need validation at certain moments, and letting it be known is the most efficient way to do that.

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I still think fishing for compliments is a pretty sad way of getting validation.

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Oops, sorry, my last comment accidentally got posted from one of my Perseity LJs. I've deleted it now, and copied it below.

I suppose it depends on how one defines 'fishing'. "Tell me I'm pretty" obviously counts, but how about putting a photo of you when you look your best up on your LJ? Or putting up a story, not so much hoping for constructive criticism but rather trusting in your friends to be kind and encouraging? The lines get blurred.

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It all goes back to intent. When I post pictures of myself, I'm not doing it so people can tell me how hawt I am. Hell, I put plenty of unflattering pictures of myself up for people to see, too. Neither do I post stories so people can tell me how good they are. I do it to entertain. That's my nature.

And perhaps it's perverse, but I enjoy my hate mail much more than I do my fan mail.

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I think you've made a key observation, here. The intention is what matters.

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Fair enough; I agree that intent has a lot to do with it. I simply disagree that anyone's intent can ever be 100% pure, and would contend that there is always some extent to which flaunting oneself, hoping for compliments, and so on will be involved. Some people are better at (consciously or no) mixing multiple intents and less blatantly "seeking" flattery/compliments, it's true. And yes, I am annoyed when people are constantly going on to the effect of "Aren't I so good?", looking for validation. But with friends who may be going through tough times, who may have self-esteem problems, or may just simply be having a rotten day, I'm inclined to give a fair bit of leeway.

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Nothing's 100% pure. Not even Ivory Soap!

I don't think self-esteem problems are helped any by the constant feeding of asked-for praise, though. I mean, wouldn't the person with low self-esteem not be aware that they were getting praise precisely because they were asking for it?

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No, because it's not really a conscious process for a lot of people, I believe. And sometimes where it seems to be conscious to outsiders, it may in fact not be.

Even if it is conscious, though, it doesn't negate its effectiveness. After all, when you post something to entertain people, and then it does its job, you are happy that you have successfully done what you set out to do. And really, the only other options are to ignore the plea for praise entirely (leading to further self-esteem problems) or to reply with something other than praise (same effect). It may not be *helping*, but it doesn't hurt. Of course, if it were a long-term situation, then a friend would want to take some other action to help, but on a once-in-a-while basis, I don't see the problem with it.

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elanya

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