My Harry Potter thoughts [elanya]

You have to admit that the scene in the cave where Harry is forcing him to drink the poison was pretty hardcore.

eeeeeeh.... medium. It just reinforced to me that Dumbledore is essentially driven by a guilt/martyr complex. It was cool that Harry followed his orders without wussing out though.

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Dumbledore is a live, I'll bet you a dollar.

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I will be very disappointed if he is.

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Why else would he tell Draco he could hide him by making Voldemort think he was already dead (and do the same for Draco's family) - unless he had already planned how to do himself?

Plus, when the funeral pyre burnt, Harry saw a phoenix shape rising out of the smoke, and Fawkes had been crying all over Dumbledore's body the night before -and phoenix tears are very healing. Plus, Snape's version of the Unforgivable Curse was totally different than the one that killed Cedric...

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Oooh, good point....

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Also, That fire scene in the cave just reenforces the fact that Dumbledore = Gandalf :p

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Although I do think the Avada Kedavra was a little off, I also agree with the points that Heather makes below... And the book also made a point of showing that Dumbledore does not fear death, and contrasting that with Voldemort's desperate attempts to stave it off. I believe D even refers to it at one point as the next part of the adventure, or something.

When Harry saw Dumbledore's body (on the rocks) I believe he was quite definitely dead. I don't think Fawkes could or did bring him back to life.

I am not sure what was up with the Phoenix shape at the end of the funeral. It seemed clear that the other Hogwarts people had not ever seen anything like it either... I think though, that the fleeting glimpse that Harry thinks he has of the phoenix 'flying joyfully into the blue' was meant more to symbolize D joyfully embarking on that adventure, rather than implying that he was still alive.

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Nah. I think he figured out how to have Snape kill him, and then come back. Otherwise, how do you explain the comment he made to Draco?

Also, where's his wand? Wizards are buried with their wands snapped. We never hear about Dumbledore's wand. That, in combination with all the other stuff - he's not dead, not any more. (And oh, his portrait in the Headmaster's office was sleeping - not awake like all the other portraits)

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I think that he was stalling for time until Snape got there. With Snape sticking so close to Malfoy (on D's orders) he had to know he wouldn't be far behind. Especially since (I think) he knew that Malfoy was supposed to kill him, and he knew that Snape would have to do it instead.

I don't think that just because Dumbledore's wand isn't explicitly mentioned as being wrapped up with his corpse, doesn't mean that it wasn't, and that his portrait being asleep at the time does not really mean that much... Other portraits have been described as sleeping before, after all; and I think if anything its being 'peaceful and untroubled' is an indication of Dumbledore's state of mind wrt to his extremely necessary passing...

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I've just recalled something... Some people speculate that Snape did not actually use Avada Kedavra (because he has the skills to say one thing and cast another), because of it being an unforgivable curse and all, but that nonetheless Dumbledore was sent falling to his death on the rocks.

I don't know where I stand on this, it was odd.

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Right - Snape goes on and on about not saying your spell out loud. And yet, he does exactly that, both with Expelliarmus and with Aveda Kedavra. Why? Especially when matched up against the greatest wizard of his age, Dumbledore.

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Well, to make it look good for Draco, obviously.

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Draco and the other assorted Death Eaters, even.

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huh?

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All those Death Eaters watching? He has to make it look like he is hardcore evil; Voldemort's man, taking care of business when Draco is too much of a little bitch. Avada Kedavra!!

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I'd think just the opposite - by calling out his spell, he actually tells them that something's up. If they think about it, they might wonder why he'd give so much away. Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort never sought a fight with, after all.

That he would suddenly start broadcasting his hexes when they know full well he doesn't have to would be suspicious.

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I dunno... A lot of them didn't seem terribly bright.

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But Voldemort is...

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Voldemort wasn't there, though... and besides, if Snape has been playing him for this long, I'm sure he could come up with some reason why he had/chose to use a verbal incantation, if he was questioned. Meanwhile he redeems himself in the eyes of all those Death Eaters who've been questioning his loyalty.

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I think it makes more sense that the stress on legilimens and occulemency is important to the story - and the secret collaboration between Dumbledore and Snape meant something other than Dumbledore being killed.

Remember that Snape protested (when he was overheard by Hagrid) that it was "too risky". Not that he didn't want to do it, or that it was distasteful. "Too risky". Like - the risk being that it wouldn't work, and Dumbledore would be actually dead.

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The thing with this, as with a lot of the points in the 'Snape is good/evil' debate is that either side can make most things fit their theories...

In this case, one could say that the risk was having Death Eaters catch on, or maybe something completely unrelated, like letting Harry in on everything...

Anyway... I'm not trying to be one of those people who 'quits' a discussion because they're losing, but I really have spent way more time debating Harry Potter this evening than I ever meant to in my entire life. I don't know what's got into me! :V

I think we can definitely agree that it will be very interesting to see how this all plays out in the next book, though!

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but I really have spent way more time debating Harry Potter this evening than I ever meant to in my entire life.

HAHAHAHA! Agreed! (though I've been in a running gun-fight with a cow-orker about this for several days, now)

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Ho! I was fairly dubious (still am, I guess) but now that I think about it. But did Snape have time to really notice, in the dark, that Dumbledore had no wand?

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I think you'll lose that bet!

I think JKR got rid of him because he was shouldering too much responsability. As long as dumbledore was around to take care of all the hard things, Harry could never really get around to facing Voldemort on his own... he'd never have to, because other peopel would be responsible for so much still.

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Nah, I think Harry is the last Horcrux, and Dumbledore is going to have to kill him. Now THAT would be a slam bam ending!

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What if GINNY is the last horcrux? She's from Gryffindor too, and don't forget the diary of Tom Riddle - didn't Voldemort remark somewhere along the line that he had been able to transfer part of his soul into her through it?

That way, Harry has to choose between his love for Ginny and his hatred of Voldemort - and doesn't Dumbledore say that love is the strongest weapon he has against Voldemort?

Hard to see hiow this could pan out, but it seems a likely twist, and it's possible he could figure a way to transfer the horcrux-ship to his own body, sacrificing himself as Dumbledore did FOR LOVE.

And I've seen an interesting question posed... could a dementor suck the voldemort part out of a living horcrux??

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You should totally geek out with Dina about HArry Potter, it's like the two of you share a brain on this subject :) I really didn't think Dumbledore was dead until the funeral. Also the slash food was the "Harrry was obsessed with Draco..." line. I read that and said, dear gods the slashers are about to go CRAZY.

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oh, yes, that one too ^-^

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I'm now wondering, after reading Aghrivaine's comment above....

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Read *my* comment!!!

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I think Dd had to die, or end up being/looking like a monster. If he was still alive for the final fight, he would have to go out and try to kill Voldy first, or else be thought a really bad in loco parentis by both the book world and the rl readers. Who lets a teenager go up agaisnt the ultimate evil, when you've got a stronger, proven wizard to do it.

Also, if DD isn't , it knocks Harry off Campbell's heroic cycle.

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That was my original thought, but I think that he might still be *around* in some form, and is at least weakened to the point where Harry still needs to be the Main Actor in this, I am not quite convinced he is all dead (i.e. go through his pockets and look for loose change ;)

Maybe mostly dead.

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Dumbledore is dead. There is no reason to believe otherwise. Everything points to him expecting to be dead. That's why he told Harry about the Horcruxes. I also believe that Snape was/is still Dumbledore's man, and by allowing Snape to kill him, he proves Snape is loyal to Voldemort to the rest of the Death Eaters, without a doubt, allowing Snape to continue to work to dismantle Voldemort's organization from the inside.

As for Harry being the last Horcrux, I believe that it is only partially true or at least that there is a part of Voldemort's soul in Harry, but I don't believe it works like a Horcrux should. Harry is what Tom Riddle could have become if had chosen a different path.

Just some thoughts

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I agree. Frankly I think Dumbledore's number was up from page one. I wondered about the whole pep talk to the Dursleys - why do that so early in the book when there is nearly a year until Harry needs to return there?

His injury from the ring probably went far deeper than just a withered hand; he knew he wouldn't see out the year. And after drinking the poison he was slipping away in any case. Not too much of a sacrifice from the Order to drink the poison as he'd already passed on a lot of information to Harry and, I can only assume others (including Snape). I doubt Dumbledore would consider his own life a sacrifice in any case, EXCEPT in terms of what the Order would lose.. which he took great pains throughout the book to minimise.

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Then there's the theory that the potion Dumbledore drank was meant to turn him into an undead thingy (arg, what are they called? Inferi?) and that was why he wanted to die (assuming he was asking Snape to kill him, which I think most people accept was the meaning of his 'pleading').

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But Inferi are basically mindless zombies...

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I think her idea was that he was undergoing a slow transformation process, so he decided he may as well die ;)

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D'OH!

I've been thinking too hard about this, haven't I...

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Yeah, that was it. That the transformation was slow enough that he wasn't undead yet, but would become so eventually, unless someone killed him first.

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I still think he was dying in any case, because of the ring...

Damn enchanted rings, nothing but trouble ;-)

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on the RAB font.. I believe in OotP, Harry and the others found, in a box of stuff at Grimmauld Place, a gold locket which would not open. Regulus lived there for quite a few years so it seems likely that this is the Horcrux.

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elanya

December