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elanya at 05:42pm on 05/09/2003
elanya at 05:42pm on 05/09/2003This is mostly a post for steve, because I have a question and I hope he can assist.
I went to King's Landing on Monday, as you may know. While there, I visited the Gristmill, where a certain miller provided me with the following information:
There is a stick that passes between the millstones, and this is called the Damsel Rod(or stick). It perforsm a variety of functions, none of which I recall. However, if there is a problem with the milling, like of the stones aren't grinding properly, the damsel stick will bang against...something, making a hell of a racket, and this will alert the miller that there is a problem. This is called a 'damsel in distress' and is in fact the origin of said saying, which originally had nothing to do with rescuing poor wayward maidens.
Now, it is the latter part of that statement that makes me dubious. I'm sure that milling is an old process and all that, but I'm not convinced that a rattling stick gave its name to the maidens in need of assistance. First of all, I'm not sure how applicable 'distress' is as a verb in the purely mill-related sense, so I'm not sure how the saying would have evolved. Also, I can't see the logical connection from rattling stick to the maidens, at all.
I suspect it is much more likley that the saying was transferred the other way, intended as a pun, possibly because the word 'damsel' in its meaning of girl (bastardized from 'demoiselle'?) is similar to an already extant milling related term?
Steve, can you shed any light on this?
I went to King's Landing on Monday, as you may know. While there, I visited the Gristmill, where a certain miller provided me with the following information:
There is a stick that passes between the millstones, and this is called the Damsel Rod(or stick). It perforsm a variety of functions, none of which I recall. However, if there is a problem with the milling, like of the stones aren't grinding properly, the damsel stick will bang against...something, making a hell of a racket, and this will alert the miller that there is a problem. This is called a 'damsel in distress' and is in fact the origin of said saying, which originally had nothing to do with rescuing poor wayward maidens.
Now, it is the latter part of that statement that makes me dubious. I'm sure that milling is an old process and all that, but I'm not convinced that a rattling stick gave its name to the maidens in need of assistance. First of all, I'm not sure how applicable 'distress' is as a verb in the purely mill-related sense, so I'm not sure how the saying would have evolved. Also, I can't see the logical connection from rattling stick to the maidens, at all.
I suspect it is much more likley that the saying was transferred the other way, intended as a pun, possibly because the word 'damsel' in its meaning of girl (bastardized from 'demoiselle'?) is similar to an already extant milling related term?
Steve, can you shed any light on this?
(no subject)
Damsel in distress
"Damsel" as a milling tool ("an iron rod with projecting pins, that shakes the shoot of the hopper in a corn mill") is much, much later; the Oxford English Dictionary lists its first occurrence in print as being from 1880 - in this case, from a word-list of dialectal terms from Counties Antrim and Down in Ireland.
Etymologically, it is the same word as 'damsel' the girl. It has been claimed that it got its name because it constantly makes a chattering noise like a young girl (http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/houghtonmill/overview/process.htm). In fact, the phrase "chattering damsel" seems to be the phrase used by millers rather than "damsel in distress" to refer to the racket it makes. I can't find any milling website that talks about "damsels in distress" but many that refer to "chattering damsels". Methinks our fair KL miller has got his phrases mixed up.
The 1880 date for the milling tool may be later than its actual first usage (esp. if it didn't show up in print for years after its colloquial use in trades). Certainly from milling sites it appears that the object now called a damsel has been around for centuries. However, it's entirely possible that it wasn't called a damsel until the late 19th century - in which case, isn't it out of period for KL?
At any rate, the set phrase 'damsel in distress' (or 'distressed damsel') clearly precedes 'damsel' as a milling implement.
Re: Damsel in distress
Re: Damsel in distress
Also, a lot of KL is early 19th century, and I think the Gristmill is either 1830 or 1860... somewhere right around then, anyway.
Re: Damsel in distress
I will endeavor to continue to educate you about this until it sticks!
Rob
Something completely different...
Re: Something completely different...
Also, what is Dr. Bane's e-mail address?
Re: Something completely different...
Re: Something completely different...